Abortion
A heavy subject, and timely, seeing as many people vote according to how a candidate stands on this issue. (I personally think that basing your voting choice solely on this issue is a bad idea.)
Currently, I would label myself as pro-choice. I think that abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. Here is an article about abortion and the Bible that I’m glad I found. It gives another perspective of this subject from somewhere other than the Religious Right Christian Coalition people. (Please, can’t someone stop them?)
Feel free to discuss.
Andrea responds:
Posted: October 30th, 2006 at 7:43 pm →
Interesting article from someone who doesn’t even believe the Bible is the Word of God. Let me paint a picture for you: Imagine yourself pregnant at what you believe is 12 weeks. You go to the doctor for the first time and lay down on the table for the ultrasound, waiting anxiously to see the heartbeat of your first baby. When the ultrasound picture comes up, what you see is a tiny form and what you don’t see is the heartbeat. You have miscarried your first child, and it had been 3 weeks since yet your body had not realized it yet. You are crushed. You end up having surgery to remove your child. This is what happened to mine and Tim’s first pregnancy. If that baby was not truly a life at that time, why did our souls grieve as if it was? Why in our hearts did we know what it is like to lose a child and were so affected? When we became pregnant the second time we went in at 6 weeks for an ultrasound to see if there was a heartbeat. Not only was there a heartbeat, but a little jumping bean of a baby. I’m sorry, Wendy, but after miscarrying and then having a successful pregnancy I cannot accept this notion that life does not begin until the actual birth. I think it’s a load of bullcrap. I was at a moms conference this weekend in which our speaker, the president of Proverbs 31, Lysa TerKeurst, told the story about her abortion years ago before she was married. She was not a Christian at the time and told us that she went home afterwards, wept on the couch and asked God to kill her because she could not stand to die. If that really was just a blob of tissues, why was she so upset? And why is it that you hear women who have had abortions talk about how wrong they were and how much they’ve suffered and gone through emotionally afterwards, but I have yet to hear a woman who has actually had an abortion say that she thinks it is good. The only pre-choice people you hear from are men and women who have not actually had an abortion themselves. I still believe that life begins at conception because I have seen the heartbeat in my womb, I have seen the perfect structure at less than 20 weeks, and I have felt my sould become attached to the precious child inside me before I even had a confirmed pregnancy test. I respect that you have your own opinion, although I cannot agree with it.
Rachel responds:
Posted: October 30th, 2006 at 10:48 pm →
In a perfect world there would be no abortion because there would be no unplanned, unexpected or unwanted pregnancies. There would be no medical emergencies or congenital defects. Every child born would be perfect and unblemished.
Unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in the real world with different beliefs, different views and different opinions. Children are born deformed. Pregnant women have difficult pregnancies, deliveries and recoveries.
There is no one answer but that is what the Christian Coalition is trying to perpetrate. They think that all abortion should be illegal.
Too bad for the 11 year old girl who was raped by her dad since the age of 9 and is now pregnant with her father’s child.
Too bad for the college student who was given a rufie and had a train done on her and will have to give up her plans for medical achool .
Too bad for the woman who has already had 2 miscarriages and finds out that her third child is developing without a brain and has zero chance of survival. She is going to have to carry the baby to term just to watch it die.
I personally have gone with a friend and saw the baby on an ultrasound machine and then heard the baby be sucked out of it’s mothers womb while she was clinging to my hand with tears streaming down her face.
Do I think that abortion should be the de facto form of birth control? NO. Do I think that it should be available to anyone for any reason without consent? NO.
I do believe that it is a woman’s choice. If she doesn’t feel that she can carry a child to term for whatever reason (mental, physical, emotional) then it is her right to choose to end the pregnancy and not be judged for her decision.
I had an unexpected pregnancy at the age of 23 and chose to have the child. I don’t regret my choice for a moment. But it was MY choice. Not someone telling me what I had to do.
robo05 responds:
Posted: October 31st, 2006 at 8:25 am →
Too bad that our pastor, a great man of God that has touched countless lives - too bad his mom didn’t abort him after she was victimized by rape. There are probably thousands of people that will experience eternity in heaven because of this man’s LIFE. I struggled with the right to choose after being raped until I heard this testimony. It’s no longer a question for me. LIFE IS NOT OUR CHOICE. I share Andrea’s experience above as I watched one of my children be flushed down the toilets of Mercy Hospital as my wife miscarried. This was a life, a life that we prayed for. A life that I hope to meet one day in heaven. I have read your beliefs on here for a while, Wendy, and while we don’t see eye to eye on many things, I don’t claim to be that smart or to be probably right that often. But this is an issue I will always stand up for.
Playtah responds:
Posted: October 31st, 2006 at 10:10 am →
Great discussion.
Andrea - thank you for sharing your experience and your views. I can’t imagine the pain you went through.
Rachel - that’s pretty much how I feel too.
Robo05 - Thank you for sharing your views as well, and the pain you experienced. Like Andrea’s experience, I can’t comprehend the pain of losing a child, especially one you prayed for.
Perhaps I should clear up a few things.
1. I don’t necessarily agree with everything in the article I linked to. But I do think that it offers a different insight into this issue, and makes some good points, whether or not the author is a Christian, believes the Bible, etc.
2. Perhaps there is some misperception–being pro-choice does not necessarily mean pro-abortion. Sometimes it seems like pro-life advocates think that pro-choice advocates want abortion on demand everywhere, anytime, for any reason. In a perfect world, abortions would never occur. I’m not advocating that people get abortions. I’ll be the first one to agree with anyone that abortions can be painful, heart-wrenching, and tragic. I’m not debating that point for a moment. But I’m saying that this is a gray area for me (and really, no-one can prove conclusively either way from the Bible), and seeing that this is a gray area, I’m not going to try to push my beliefs on a pregnant person. (Especially someone who had pregnancy forced upon them, such as a rape victim).
3. Regarding rape victims especially, if a rape victim gets pregnant from a rape and keeps it, that’s great that they decide to give birth. There are many great people who were unplanned or forced pregnancies, and have made the world a better place. I would never force someone to give up a baby or abort a baby.
Do realize, though, that there are other view points. Someone may say, “So-and-so was raped, but her child has helped countless others.” That is very true, and great that the mom kept the baby! However, there are other people who would argue that perhaps the mother could have helped many more if she had not had the baby. I’m not saying that I believe this, I’m just throwing out thoughts. Also, many people say that with all the abortions, we may have aborted the next Einstein or Mother Teresa. Perhaps, but we may have also aborted Hitlers and Stalins. Again, I’m not saying that I necessarily hold these positions, but it’s something to think about.
4. There are many times when life does become our choice (whether good or bad). Imagine a doctor treating victims from an accident or catastrophe who have to choose which person to help first, possibly meaning that another person will die. Imagine voting on whether or not to go to war, or voting for someone who does want to go to war. Imagine executing a killer. Imagine being elderly and chosing whether or not to wear the “Do not resuscitate” bracelet. In all these cases, we have the power to affect who lives and who dies. So personally, the notion that only God should control who lives or dies is contradicted every day by doctors, voters, governments, and regular people. Does that mean that we have a right to “play God”? Of course not. My point is, that many people (no one in particular) would agree that “Life isn’t a choice we get to make”, but then by their actions and decisions, actually contradict that.
5. It is interesting to note that Jesus never mentioned abortion, even though it was around in that time.
Great discussion. Please, feel free to respond and share your views.
Betty01 responds:
Posted: November 1st, 2006 at 11:05 pm →
I’ve been reading your blog and have laughed so many times at your wonderful view of life. I have also disagreed with your point of view many times (during some of your serious moments). I decided I couldn’t be silent on the issue of abortion. I am glad you can think for yourself and articulate your beliefs. Everyone should know what and why they believe what they do. I have not read this linked article yet because I have already formed my belief. I believe life begins at conception. Although it was the parents choice to have sex, once the egg is fertilized, this is God’s life he has ordained and no one has the right to end it but God. It is God’s choice. I don’t believe it is EVER a woman’s choice to end a life God has ordained. Even though a baby is deformed, that baby can still be a blessing. Scripture tells us as Christians, God will not give us more than we can handle. We need to trust him. You have a cousin that has Down’s Syndrome. She is so sweet and such a blessing. I cannot imagine life without her. She was given to the perfect parents. Thankfully, they did not believe in abortion. Your dad said that the two most dangerous places for children are (1) in school and (2) in a mother’s womb. As you know, I hate politics but to me this goes WAY beyond a political issue. I will always try to protect children. So now you know, your mother is a right winger!!
ANON1 responds:
Posted: November 3rd, 2006 at 1:10 pm →
First of all, the christian coalition as you call it puts focus on family. That is, a father, a mother (married) and children. People who have children without a solid family model in place are irresponsible and downright stupid. I don’t care what anyone says, adults know how the birds and the bees work so use a damn condom or birth control. Or maybe have some self respect and not let every guy in a 10 mile radius jump on top of you. I love how women cry…”It’s my body…blah, blah, blah…” Well, the baby also belongs to the man. And let’s not forget it is a human life. But I guess men shouldn’t have any rights because men don’t actually carry the babies. Give me a break.
All of the examples you cited Rachel are very rare. So a child should be aborted because he/she is deformed? Were you born perfect. I think not. Adoption is always an option and once again so is actually taking responsiblity for your actions and raising the child.
The problem with this country is that there are too many godless, selfish people running around yelling me, me, me.
I applaud GW Bush and his so called Christian Coalition in trying to bring make some moral fiber into this mess we now call America. Family used to stand for something; today, must people stand for nothing.
And if you get knocked up because YOU decided not to use a protection or birth control then YOU must take responsibilty for your OWN ACTIONS.
Karma will come back to get the pro-choice crowd that thinks its OK to kill babies because they want to avoid being responsible.
I have never heard of anyone being knocked out by a “rufie”, having a “train” “done” on her thus causing her to cancel medical school.
As far as fathers who impregnate their own daughters I would say doesn’t happen very often also.
So please stop trying to act all intelligent and wise.
JOHN MCCAIN in 2008!
Playtah responds:
Posted: November 3rd, 2006 at 2:12 pm →
Hey, Mom! Thanks for commenting. I think this is your debut on my blog!
Thank you for your thoughts. I’m glad you still kept me in the will even though we have differing viewpoints sometimes. (I AM still in the will, right?!) You make good points. And I’m glad that Uncle J and Aunt A decided to have my cousin.
For me personally, I do believe that life begins at conception–it’s the issue of “personhood” that’s a little gray to me.
Dad was mostly right about the dangerous places for children, but he forgot about 3) Neverland Ranch.
Love you, Mom!
Playtah responds:
Posted: November 3rd, 2006 at 5:00 pm →
ANON1–Thanks for your comments–sorry it didn’t show up sooner, for some reason WordPress said I had to moderate the comment.
You seem to feel very strongly about this issue, which shows that you care–that’s a very good thing. And you make valid points about responsibility.
I guess for me personally, I’m not convinced that abortion in every case is necessarily wrong, so for me, I’d rather give the choice to the mother. That’s just where I am right now. I don’t think anyone who is pro-choice on this blog is advocating abortion, it’s just that for me, I’m not facing the difficulties or situations that a pregnant woman may have to deal with, so I’d rather have it be decided case-by-case.
Each side of the debate sees their options as the “right” option and looks at the debate as being a black-and-white issue. I’ve found very few things in life that are truly black and white. The existence of these two very polarized views of abortion just goes to show that it’s really not black and white, since two groups with the same information come out with completely opposite conclusions.
No matter which side of the debate we fall on, I don’t think abortion will ever be outlawed in the US, so I’d love to see people’s efforts go toward something else, like helping to eliminate poverty, or bring water to people who need it, etc.
Andrea responds:
Posted: November 4th, 2006 at 10:58 am →
Ah, but Wendy, poverty will always be in the world and there will always be something not right with it, as result of sin. When I was in high school I wrote in a paper that there will never be peace in the world (not that we shouldn’t wish for it) and we will never all hold hands and sing kumbaya because that is the effect of Satan being so present in our world. She gave me a bad grade and called me cynical. I say I’m a realist at least. Therefore, it kind of is a nice thing that God made us all with different passions. So while some people want to work on putting a stop to abortion, others want to work towards giving clean water to countries that don’t have it, etc. But we can at least all stand up for what we think is right.
ANON1 responds:
Posted: November 6th, 2006 at 11:43 am →
Well get out and vote Republican tommorow.
My question still is this. If it takes two to make a baby why is it only acceptable for one to decide to not keep it?
And, once again, this goes make to my point of not having children unless you are in a stable, married relationship. The world is overpopulated already, why add more people to it?
I think that tax breaks should be given to people with less children. There is no need to breed like mice in an overpopulated world.
Playtah responds:
Posted: November 6th, 2006 at 12:34 pm →
Andrea - Good point. We do all have different passions.
ANON1 - Actually, I’ll probably vote straight-ticket Democrat. Or perhaps I will write in “Peter Griffin” for Governor.
As far as having/not having kids–whether we think it’s fair or not– the woman has the baby-growing equipment, so she ultimately gets to decide. In this day and age, the moment a guy has sex is the moment he gives up his right to that type of decision. For guys who don’t think that’s fair, I guess, don’t have sex.
And I agree with you that a stable, married relationship is definitely the best situation to be in to have kids.
That is a good idea, though, to have an incentive to either not have kids or have fewer kids. The “go forth and multiply” command worked well when there was 2 people in the world. Now that there’s 6 billion, “stay home and remain at the same amount” seems like a pretty good idea, too.
Kyle Bushre responds:
Posted: November 6th, 2006 at 11:11 pm →
Sister Gretchen, I’ll be the first to speak up when it comes time to say where the Moral Majority folks have blown it, but I think this article you are looking to as support for Christian abortion is perhaps one of the most flawed arguments I have ever read on the subject, be it pro-life or choice. I’m not speaking from an ethical standpoint (though I think it is wrong on that account as well.) I’m speaking solely from a logical standpoint. It’s been a while since I have seen an argument so full of straw man attacks, logical fallacies, and what appears to be the complete lack of knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures that he so poorly uses. I’d be happy to point out what I’m talking about if you send me an email.
deb responds:
Posted: November 7th, 2006 at 8:40 am →
I did some more reading on the man’s website that wrote the article linked in this post. His argument regarding abortion states “abortion is Biblical” however in his “about the author” article he states “I can no longer claim the Bible to be his (God’s) Word”.
So, logically, how can he make an argument that something is Biblical using the Bible as his proof if he doesn’t even believe in the validity of that which he’s quoting?? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Any thoughts??
Playtah responds:
Posted: November 7th, 2006 at 10:42 am →
Kyle - Brother Sven! I missed you at this year’s Flatulent Goat Festival! It didn’t go nearly as well as previous years–apparently, the goat had been bitten by a bat, and contracted rabies. We didn’t know until the parade, when the goat broke from its leash and began attacking parking meters. We had to take it out with a blowgun.
Anyhoo, about the paper, I don’t necessarily think it was a perfect argument, I just found it interesting. That would be great, however if you would send me some info and your thoughts. I’ll email you.
Deb - I think he’s just trying to point out the flaws/shortcomings in the typical anti-abortion argument by Christians. Essentially, it’s like “Ok, you hold the Bible as your highest authority, and base your opinions on that? Well here are some problems I see with what you’re claiming. In fact, I will now use what you claim as your highest authority to come to a completely different conclusion.” I don’t think you necessarily have to agree with something to use it as a tool to persuade others. But that’s just my two cents… :)